Armageddon october 2007 - NOW IN MELBOURNE

Armageddon convention notes and news http://armageddonexpo.com

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Postby mark selan on Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:55 pm

Laocorn wrote:"Armageddon"


I won't bow down to your need to spell the names of corporate entities correctly - you stooge
Last edited by mark selan on Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Laocorn on Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:04 pm

mark selan wrote:
Laocorn wrote:"Armageddon"


I won't bow down to your need to spell the names of corporate entities correctly - you stooge


Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk.

Edit: If that's not the right sound, then bah.
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Postby rumpusroomie on Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:27 am

Hayden i did pop by the booth but you were busy and i honestly spent all of fifteen minutes down the alley. I'm embarrassed to admit i went to the con for the pop culture stuff, namely Bruce Timm and Billy West.

I justify that by saying animation is what got me back into comics after spending 10 years doing short films etc and also coming from the monthly meetings and Doujicon this year i felt comfortable that those experiences were the ones that were unique.

Did i mention i met Bruce "Tiny Toons, Batman: TAS, Justice League, Batman Beyond, Superman, Doomsday, Justice League Unlimited" Timm?

As for some of the points raised. Toaster i think Crumb's quote isn't appropriate. Yes commercialisation IN the product may be a slippery slope, modifying your content to appeal to a market, but using tools to draw an audience in to your work which has retained artistic integrity is a different thing.

Maybe those who are bothered by selling themselves could form partnerships with publishers to sell the work FOR them.

I think the reason why this conversation has gone on for so long is that Vent came in with guns blazing and got a few peoples backs up.

Also people are dwelling on certain tools as "marketing" Bobby, i reckon a video of your process would facinate passerbys to attact them without you needing to pimp.
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Postby Egofreaky on Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:09 am

mark selan wrote:Doujicon is for manga, I do real comics.
You'll enter a world of heavenly bliss when you realise that manga is comics. Comics is manga. Manga is a word, like comics that describe sequential art. Whilst I have reservations about Doujicon's organisation (HEY Everybody we have a THEME!) essentially it can be whatever you make it. If individual creators spread the word to the right communities and turned up selling indie minis and zines, it would tip the favour away from "Manga".


I'd like to thank Mark for pointing this out.
Whenever I say it, no one seems to pay attention. Maybe coming from someone else it'll have more effect thanks to repetition.
It's only "Manga" because that's who comes, because they talk to each other.


On the flip side, Mark, if there's something wrong with the con, gimme some feedback that I can work with, or better yet, help me out (I know you're someone with most of their shit together) with getting those problems fixed.
As for the theme, that's really just set dressing. We all know that. But ti does help create uniform design for visual material associated with the event and potential decoration.
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Postby Li'l Sketchy on Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:32 am

I find it kind of amusing that analogies were made between comics and Borders, and an art gallery, as it links to the age old question. What are comics? Is it art? Is it a book? Where does it belong? I say stop trying to categorise it and say it for what it is... 'It's a comic!' It is neither. I have people who introduce me, saying 'This is Caanan. He's an artist.' and I am always correcting them. 'No, I am an illustrator/commercial artist. Cartoonist. Or comic artist!' I don't consider myself an artist. Or a writer.

So why not embrace Doujicon as the established event that it is, grow it, and make it a celebration of comics! Do we really need any further segregation when three quarters of the population ALREADY don't know how to categorise us?

Stuff these arbitrary titles of 'indie'. What the hell is indie? If you go around thinking you're indie, you're already a victim of the marketing machine.

*ahem* ...I won't rant about that here...

Anyway. Yes, why can't Doujicon simply be a celebration of comics? Why does it have to have this 'indie' label? Why can't you have areas for the local comic shops to come and sell? Why can't we try and attract big (comic) names to it? Why can't it be just all about comics, and less about wanking?? We're all here 'cos we love the medium, right? Who gives a rat's butt if you do non-offensive kid stuff like me, or cutting edge, boundary pushing, edgy stuff? It's the medium that's the unifier.

Oh, and Avi, if you're looking for some fun stuff to incorporate into Douji 3, at the Toronto Fan Expo they had sketch-offs, which was two famous artists competing to draw a popular character voted on by the audience, answering questions for an hour while they draw. It was great! And everyone got a raffle ticket to win the actual art. Watching John Romita Jr and Sr sketch off was awesome.
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Postby Scarlette on Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:29 am

I think the Borders/art gallery analogies were more about describing the setting than the medium, but yeah, for sure. This argument is not what I thought it was really about any how, so I'll stay away from it - I guess I wasn't thinking about about the whole marketing thing or the buyer/seller relationship, which honestly I know nothing about.
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Postby rumpusroomie on Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:42 am

Caanan,

You lucky sod seeing Romitta...s . Who won?
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Postby Anomic on Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:35 am

mark selan wrote:Why am I sad?
.


Mark for PM … totally agree with what you’ve posted.

And, even though I’m a fireman and should know better than getting the petrol out for a fire …

I would like to add to your list

Fear

To market your product (and yourself for that matter) takes self-belief and confidence. Most teenagers will give an air of “fuck off - I’m disinterested in what others think” However this is more a protection mechanism/posturing to avoid the pain of getting rejected.

It’s through this similar posture (as describe in some posts here) that you can justify that; if you don’t sell stuff then it’s the dickhead customers too stupid and commercial to grasp your “art.” As opposed to perhaps its not as good as it could be or you couldn’t close the deal.

Don’t get me wrong (or do, I obviously have given up giving a shit) it is painful if people don’t like your stuff – its a lot of work getting it to the stage its ready for public consumption. But if you are wanting to sell it as opposed to giving it away you are operating in a consumer market, a market by definition where the consumer is at the centre of things and your “art” will be judged in the harsh glare of value, quality and by how you market it.

Before any accuse me of equating some comic creators as having the emotional capacities of a 15 year old – you’d be damn right. :)
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Postby andrew.fulton on Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:38 am

So Vent, Andrew sorry you had a crappy time at AA, next time you go to a con, come by my table (if I'm there) and I'll give you some freebies.


I was going to leave this alone, but just felt I needed to make the point that I didn't have a crappy time at all. It was pretty great.* It just didn't have enough of what I wanted so see. I would have been happy if the entire shed was taken over with a great big artists alley and the rest of the nonsense went away. That's the kind of energy I get excited about. Doujicon was a bajillion times better, I hope it keeps going that way and becomes something really great.

But I'm happy to take a free comic anytime you want to give me one, Mark.

* it was tiring, mainly because I was dragging around a three year old who thought the laser tag tent was a jumpy castle and was scared of the stormtroopers
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Postby davidjcunning on Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:45 am

I think Mark has made some very interesting points - some of which I had not considered before and that have helped me to look at this situation in a different light - something that perhaps most of us here should have done from the beginning rather than just getting defensive.

Without being taken out of context I was only trying to put forward the idea of considering it from another point of view and while I did not disagree with the comments made by Vent I guess there was a defensive reaction that comes when somebody comes in swinging.

I guess I was basing my reply on the emotive defensive reaction that I got from Vent's guns blazing approach, when really we should consider any event or publicity from a business point of view and from the customers point of view first and foremost. I'm a little annoyed at myself for getting uppety. Usually when it comes to LAC or business I make decisions based on how they will affect the business rather than trying to score points.

In my day job the rules are simple. Create a product that people will want. Let them know it exists. Provide the service you are expected to provide. None of this means selling out.
I am just as much to blame for getting carried away here as anybody, but as Hayden said it is good to see that everybody is still passionate.

While we never agree on the 'correct' methods of selling or marketing I think we can all agree that without the people purchasing our books we'll never reach the expectations that we have.
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Postby bluetoaster on Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:21 am

davidjcunning wrote:...I guess I was basing my reply on the emotive defensive reaction that I got from Vent's guns blazing approach, when really we should consider any event or publicity from a business point of view and from the customers point of view first and foremost.

This was my reason also. I've never said that any of the points put forward were wrong. I contiunually tried to imply that different people had different ways of selling. I just tended to (like David) take issue with the straight-line (1-size-fits-all) reasoning that Vent was bluntly pushing.

Like I said before - i dont think I've met anyone who is 'rude' at selling, but then Im sure people can always sell better in another's eyes.

Admittedly, my last 2 posts were written in a hurry right before i left to catch my train after work - so i sort of mentally 'spilt' it out - and my notions of 'selling out' were meant to convey the way one feels comfortable selling themselves.

I agree sellers being 'unfriendly' is counter-productive to their sales - but I too can see the difference between personalities that are introverted and extroverted - and how these may colour an opinion of the buyer as 'unfriendly'.

Laocorn wrote:"Correct me if I'm wrong here Bobby, but did we get noticed when I was straining my voice and making a "Butcher" of myself? "

Your quite right mate. You did get the attention - but i just dont have it in me to sell that way. Does that make my selling methods innapropriate, or me 'unfriendly' though?... thats been my main point here all along.

Trev wrote:Toaster i think Crumb's quote isn't appropriate. Yes commercialisation IN the product may be a slippery slope, modifying your content to appeal to a market, but using tools to draw an audience in to your work which has retained artistic integrity is a different thing.

Quite right. Like i said... i spotted it just before i had to leave work last night and pasted it in, because i mistakenly thought it added something. I was getting at 'how' one does things.

Conveyed it wrong though.

BTW: That Scott McCloud book is great. Definitely getting a copy for myself.

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Postby mike nason on Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:58 am

It's clear that we all come to this game with different motivations, inspirations and personal hangups about what we do and why we do it.

Selling out is only applicable if you're doing something that contradicts your own sense of honesty (but it's worthwhile to consider your real understanding of your true motivations for what you're doing before you judge others and by default, yourself).

If you're here to be mainstream (whatever that really means as it will depend on your own personal spin) then be mainstream and be good at it.

If alternative (as if there really was such a thing) is your deal then be the best alternative you can be (as Sketchy pointed out these are just labels and they only have meaning to those people who buy into them and need to separate themselves as a way of protecting themselves from competing freely with others...well, that's how I understand it).

As far as Dodgy-Con is concerned (sorry Avi but I love the irony and double meaning (even if it's not accurate) of the sound of the name in the same way that I like the sound of "LAC" and what it suggests...) I think we take ourselves too seriously in some areas and not seriously enough in others.

It doesn't mater what we call it, but it does mater how we advertise it. Armageddon, supernova...those names don't really make any more sense than Doujicon except that they're in English. If you hadn't mentioned the meaning of Doujicon then I would never have known it and that would be the same for the average passer by seeing the poster for the first time. Non of them are explicitly connected to what the events are about (unless you do understand Japanese). Unless it states clearly in big letters "Self Publishers Convention" or "Melbourne Comic Book Convention" then it'll be the graphics that will get them to take a closer look (like the Superman image I mentioned in an earlier post). The only thing that matters is that the advertising material is clear and easy to read at a distance (and there are plenty of good and bad examples around the city of what the differences are).

I don't see the point in complaining about the title of an event unless I felt it was nonrepresentational. So maybe that's what people are feeling, that "Doujicon" is to Manga specific. Whereas Armageddon and Supernova don't mean anything...but that's the point, the title alone doesn't sell anything it's the overall packaging that sells the product. That includes things like mascots (for Armageddon it was an image of Superman, clearly an effective choice) and the "menu" (the draw-card, the ace up the sleeve that's supposed to make it an irresistible choice) for the event (like international superstar guest types). Doujicon is setting itself up as an "alternative" event and because of that it's placing itself into a niche market and will therefor have less appeal to the general public.

I think considering the limitations of the name and the advertising material getting 200-300 people to turn up is a bloody good effort and we have little if anything to complain about. Apart from the organization of the event (which is just a matter of experience and I'm sure all efforts are being taken to learn from previous experiences) I can't see what would necessarily make it any better than it is. It will grow over time. The important thing is that it continues. We all want it to I'm sure.

I have more to say about all this but I'll have to come back later

this is a gooooood thread


:D
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Postby Vent on Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:43 am

i just feel that i have to say that this has been a rather good laugh on my part.

For those who feel sulky that i came in "guns blazing" i do have a little giggle at your expense; i have been sitting around watching certain users put forward subtle comments and such for a long time and getting absolutely no where. Would as many of you have replied or have considered the points (once they were realised) if everything had been couched in polite, urbane terms, or if you had known right off the bat that i am a vendor occasionally as well as the rest of you?

Psycologically it was amusing watching the immediate knee jerk "its not my fault" reactions many of you gave, as well as the school yard environment it gives off. Some of you guys really need to stop and think for a while about your motives and the points being made before making asses of yourselves.

As Hayden said, it was good seeing passion back in the forums. I'm just sad it took someone being a jerk whilst pointing out the shortfalls to bring it out.
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Postby mike nason on Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:27 pm

wow, if I had said that I'd have been called a pompous ass...hang on, I was called a pompous ass...


Vent, you're a pompous ass! :p
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Postby rumpusroomie on Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:42 pm

Vent wrote:For those who feel sulky that i came in "guns blazing" i do have a little giggle at your expense; i have been sitting around watching certain users put forward subtle comments and such for a long time and getting absolutely no where. Would as many of you have replied or have considered the points (once they were realised) if everything had been couched in polite, urbane terms, or if you had known right off the bat that i am a vendor occasionally as well as the rest of you?

...Some of you guys really need to stop and think for a while about your motives and the points being made before making asses of yourselves.


So YOU get to make an ass of yourself because YOU had a point to make while THEY only had a point to.. oh wait.. That's still bullshit!

I stand by my belief that your first post was so full of hyperbole and 14 year old angst that people had a right to get their backs up.

And at the end of the day the ends justify the means? Well lets see what the ENDS are...

1. People responding. Flame wars get responses all the time, that doesn't mean the guy who started it deserves a pat on the back.

2. People discussed the pros and cons of selling methods. Been done before, will be done again and it doesn't sound like your involvement changed anyone's mind. Bobby still feels a book should stand on it's own and his role IS like a Borders, to provide a space and method of purchasing and if the book doesn't sell it's only his loss, that may be wrong, that may be detrimental to our industry but it's choice.

3. People discussed the pros and cons of Doujicon and how best to promote/market it and ourselves around it. I'm pretty sure we were discussing that before you came in too.

After the first post you actually made valid points. Those were taken on board and you insult all of us when you say we don't consider polite urbane comments because thats all people like Avi and David Bird make and don't think for a minute we don't consider and take on board their comments.
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