VOTING: 24 Page Category

Forum for the 2005 OzComics 24 Hour Challenge. (ARCHIVED - READ ONLY)

Which 24 page entries did you think were the best?

Poll ended at Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:08 am

Ben Hutchings - Gnome Valley '86 - Canberra
15
6%
Caanan - Slingshot Hill - Melbourne
12
5%
Chris Lassig - The Meaning of Life - Melbourne
7
3%
Dave Babore - Railway Cop - Brisbane
13
6%
David Milne - Young Hog & the Magical Kipper - Adelaide
2
1%
Edward Grug III- Gasp - Perth
24
10%
Erin McGregor - Lobo - Adelaide
5
2%
Gavin Thomson- Burnard the lonely Bunyip- ACT
4
2%
G.Buist - Curse of the Dyslexic Genie - NZ
6
3%
Iain Murray - Captain Kipper - Victoria
1
0%
Jacen David Carpenter - Legal Eagle - Longreach
1
0%
Jason Kwan - The Briefcase - Melbourne
4
2%
Jo Kerkham - Some Little Things - Adelaide
3
1%
Josh Lee - Blackout Cat - Adelaide
5
2%
Joshua Salmon - Thistler's Cabin Fever - Melbourne
5
2%
Kenneth Chan - Strawberries Armour - Melbourne
3
1%
Lee Hislop - It's all down hill from here - Perth
6
3%
Liam Jose-Baker - Atonement - Victoria
0
No votes
Loren Morris - Intentional Static - Adelaide
10
4%
Lucas House - Origin of Sheepman - Adelaide
0
No votes
Mark Selan - Brown and Sticky - Adelaide
4
2%
Matthew Sutton - Raziel - Vic
1
0%
Michael Connolly - Chains Of Time - Nambucca
1
0%
Michael Li - The First Time I Fetched Water - Brisbane
25
11%
Owen Heitmann - Title Goes Here - Adelaide
18
8%
Patrick Alexander - CUNT! - Sydney
25
11%
Ross Tesoriero - Acid Fuelled Frankenstein - Marrickville
4
2%
Stephen Dann - Future Calling - Brisbane
1
0%
Steven Tamstil - The kipper from heaven boat - Melbourne
1
0%
Tim Dawson - Reality Engine - Adelaide
11
5%
Tina Fazzalari - Stranded! - Adelaide
8
3%
Tom Beisly and Daniel Keegan - State of Insurgency - New Zealand
1
0%
Wen Huang - Food for Spirit - Melbourne
5
2%
Sarah Milne - Unbirthday Bear - Adelaide
5
2%
 
Total votes : 236

Postby mark selan on Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:16 am

Ok, the polls have closed.

But don't start celebrating yet - these are not the final tallies. We'll be looking through the votes and cancelling out votes from new members with less than 5 posts to their name. This is to keep things fair, otherwise its just a matter of of how has the most friends.

Once that's done - the winners will be announced!

Thanks to everyone who voted.
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Postby mark selan on Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:24 pm

It seems the polls closed early.

I started the poll last tuesday to have it run for 7 days so it would run for a whole week and close on tuesday(that's how the Ozcomic board's polls ran back in the day). It seems the the board counts the current day (when the poll starts) as day 1, therefore it finished early. I can't restart the poll.

So if for some reason you left voting to the last minute, send me a PM with your votes. I'll add it to the tally (don't worry i didn't get to vote either). It, of course, be confidential - and don't try and pull a fast one and try and vote again - we have lists.
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Postby Patrick Alexander on Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:08 pm

mark selan wrote:We'll be looking through the votes and cancelling out votes from new members with less than 5 posts to their name. This is to keep things fair, otherwise its just a matter of of how has the most friends.


I'm sure, as an entrant, I'm biased, but, how can you assume that all the forum members to whom that applies are 'vote stackers'? What about long-time lurkers who finally registered so they could vote? What about all the newbies your big publicity push was supposed to attract? That was the idea, right? And even new members who are friends/fans of entrants -- how can you know that they didn't look at any other entries?

If it's only going to be the Pulp Faction in-crowd whose votes count, you might as well have used a panel of judges. Not everyone in Australia with an interest in comics also has an interest in internet messageboards.

I'm curious as to folks' thoughts on this... stuff.
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Postby Fitts on Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:33 pm

There are points to both arguments, ultimately I agree with Mark. I'm thinking that if anyone was keen about the challenge they would have written five posts in response to works they have read anyway before or after voting. Part of the problem is the small number of people voting if there were larger numbers then the friends and family votes wouldn't weigh in quite so much as a factor.
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Postby Owen Heitmann on Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:45 pm

I concur with Patrick.

Sure, I admit I have been encouraging my friends (and some complete strangers) to vote for me, but I think Patrick hit it on the head here:
Patrick Alexander wrote:What about long-time lurkers who finally registered so they could vote? What about all the newbies your big publicity push was supposed to attract? That was the idea, right?

If I hadn't been an entrant, this is exactly what I would have done: read all the entries, registered, voted, then come back next year to do it again.

Patrick Alexander wrote:Not everyone in Australia with an interest in comics also has an interest in internet messageboards.

Again, Patrick = nail + hitting on head.

(For the record, I also told my friends to read the entries I liked most. And for the record, most of my friends also don't listen to me.)
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Postby Lisa on Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:30 pm

c'mon

that's not really fair to cancel the votes from people who have only just joined, i spent a lot of time reading them and only joined so i could vote

and i think it's not very nice of us to assume that people are going to get their friends to just vote so that they can win the prize .... i think most people who have gone to the effort to put work into this contest have more integrity than that and they deserve to be given the benefit of the doubt

so ... plz count my vote :(

-Lisa
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Postby palmer on Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:49 pm

i agree... i joined specifically in response to this 24hr comics challenge: i wouldn't normally comment on comics because rarely have i seen such cool work, as is found in this competition. I'm a keen reader of webcomics, and MOST of the comics that I've read here I much PREFER to many well known web comics! the quality and diversity here rock!
congrats to everyone!
that being said, I wouldn't be surprised if people joined just for this competition: and anyway my faves didn't get that many votes (except for the immanual KANT biography).
If any one comic got a heap of votes from users who haven't posted, sure that's suspicious... but did that happen? (btw that's not rhetorical)
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Postby XiaoLi on Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:02 pm

Oooh, lotsa of controversy this year... :|>

It is true you need integrity to do a 24 hour comic. The whole process relies on an honour system. Last the rules were the same, but I don't remember whether people brought it up then.

And yeah, I think the voting overall has been pretty fair. I mean, I got a lot of votes, and I only just joined up for the challenge.
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Postby mark selan on Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:45 pm

Its a tricky, and it hasn't been helped by the early closure of the polls, so i apologise

One of the aims of the challenge is to build community so if someone joins the board with the name kinkyfan04, doesn't provide a location, interests, occupation in their profile and only votes in 1 category for one entry and doesn't want to get involved in any threads - then I can assume that person isn't interested in being part of the community. Their votes aren't counted - its pretty safe to assume they are only voting for mates - its admirable but not fair for others.

For the people who register, vote and disappear but can't make the effort to make a couple of "good job/well done" posts, whilst I'm thankful for the attention and i hope you enjoyed the comics but it is difficult to tell you apart from people who have just voted for their mates.

It's nice to assume that people won't vote for their friends because they are friends but having been part of these polls for a 3 years and 2 ozcomic awards, a pattern emerges. The use of multiple entry polls and 5 minimum posts rule helps keep it a level playfield.

The number of votes that were discounted was minimal - between 3-5 for each category. the discounted votes were for entries by people who had made public appeals for people to vote for them.

Decisions were made based on the rules, all evidence and past experience, all with the aim of being fair. What makes it harder is that it was a close race. And its not a perfect system, hopefully next year some of the bugs in the system will be worked out.

If people have suggestions on how the voting can be fair and still open let me know.
A panel of judges would be cool, but my experience with trying to convene a Panel of judges for the ozcomic awards did not go well.
Preferential voting works ok, but the poll has to be reprogrammed and i don't have the skillset to do that. But both these options will be reassessed next year.



On a related note
In the case of a tie, i've decided that the sponsor will chose who wins their prize.
So if there is a tie for 1st place, the sponsor donating the prize for 1st place will chose between the tied entries. The entry not chosen gets the 2nd prize, the placegetters thereafter cascade from there.
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Postby maggie on Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:29 am

I hate playing the finger shaker, but...
The bottom line is that the rule is nothing new or unknown and has been posted on the website for this year's competition for ages. (and how come no one complained last year?)

Anyone who had an issue with the rule could have spoken up long before now.

No one did.

Anyone who really wanted to pull in some extra votes could have contacted their friends sooner rather than later.

And I'd like to go on record as noting that we were _NOT_ really strict in the enforcement of the rule. Almost every vote that was rejected was from someone who registered (after voting had begun, I might add), voted only on one entry and never made a single post (or made only 1). And to answer Palmer's question... sadly, yes.

And... to add insult to your injuries... ;)
I just woke up and I have some PMs with late votes from last night so the totals may change again.

M
(with admin hat on)
Last edited by maggie on Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby maggie on Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:31 am

Bah! Shaddup! I wasn't even allowed to compete ya bastiches!
Next whinge has to help pay my hosting bill. ;)

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Postby Tigris on Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:20 am

For what it's worth (probably diddly-squat to you folks), I've been having a peculiar problem where my wireless router's hardware/software seems to hate the Pulp Faction forums, as it always cuts out 2-3 minutes after I access; which means... reading all the comics... and having to reset the button 20 times in three hours... and then posting a "good-job, well done" message the way you suggest...

...I gave up on posting msgs after a while and just kept reading, as loading up a comic would cut me out, and then reconnecting just so I could hit the reply button to get the message-composing page, and then reconnecting *again* to post said reply once I'd written it... *arrgh!*

Madness.

I also know it's something to do with the forums causing the connection cut-out, because my brother and I troubleshooted *everything* from the ground up, re-installed all sorts of crap and firmware, and monitored web-surfing patterns, even.

I only post replies on a forum I don't frequent when I feel the replies are absolutely required -- eg. in case, 'The First Time I Fetched Water' and 'CUNT!', both for their exceptional artwork, and the emotions they evoked (or provoked). Otherwise, posting something for each and every single comic? If I felt like it was boringly ordinary, I'm not going to bother posting anything; and after a while posting the same thing over, and over, and over, just to be polite strikes me as insincere and ridiculous. I understand the concept of posting to provide constructive critique, and giving reasons *why* you didn't like something in addition to saying you just didn't like it; but... figure in the absolute HELL I had to go through just to look at things, I'm sorry but posting replies had to fall on the wayside.

Rant, rant, rant. :p

With that said, you should maybe post the rules and criteria for being a valid-voter in the same post as each of the polls, aswell as on the 24 Hour site itself, so if voters see the info after they vote, they'll hopefully be smart enough to go back and do what it takes to qualify themselves and not have their time wasted. The participating artists are given explicit details on what it takes for them to qualify, should they choose to do so; participating voters should be given the same clarity and accessibility of information.

So, c'mon. We ALL know just how many people actually bother to read the sticky-rules and/or fine print on most things (I am personally sick of parroting and moderating on another forum - the Brisbane Anime Society, to be exact so I can sympathize somewhat). Just how many new users did you have sign up in the last couple weeks? All I can ever recall you saying, over and over, is to register if you want to be able to vote. That's it. I do not recall being directed to read anything resembling eligibility-clauses for voters, or remember you saying 'register if you want to vote, and ensure you have > 5 posts, etc'. If you've made a general post, aside from the sticky-rule, where you DID do this, by all means, post the link and tell me (and I hope your own integrity is impeccable enough to not edit something beforehand :p ). Else, I feel like I've followed misleading advertising, or something! :|>

Anyways, that's enough mental spewage for one evening... morning. Egads, the time! So, thankyou for reading through all of that, if you managed it; I'm not angry or ticked off or anything - just very very cold and very very tired. And I suppose slightlly annoyed that all the effort i went through of reading everything in order to vote is going to be pooh-poohed and viewed as nothing more than a minion's vote. Geez. Even *IF* a friend told me to register so I could vote I'd still want to review everything equally. My own moral code demands it, and I'm more likely to NOT vote for them if they tell me to vote, or be more judgemental in awarding a friend a vote based on them being a friend. if that makes sense.

For now though, you will have to excuse me, as I have to reset my router to post this message.

*passes soapbox to the next willing speaker*
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Postby LaMiel on Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:31 am

In my most humblest of opinions, people, the rules are clearly stated. I direct your attention to the following link: http://www.aussiecomics.com/24hr/voting.php?nav=rules
Having said that....... perhaps Mark has shown some flexibility in the past (RE: 23 pages = 24 page category) this may indicate to some that there exists a bit of wiggle room in terms of newbies and the <5 post rule. I think this challenge, with these rules, will be a great success for years to come. Moderators must be unwaiveringly consistent in enforcing all rules as stated in the ... uummm... rules... yeah.
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Postby maggie on Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:37 am

Since I didn't throw my 2 cents in to answer Patrick's specific questions...

Patrick Alexander wrote:I'm sure, as an entrant, I'm biased, but, how can you assume that all the forum members to whom that applies are 'vote stackers'? What about long-time lurkers who finally registered so they could vote? What about all the newbies your big publicity push was supposed to attract? That was the idea, right? And even new members who are friends/fans of entrants -- how can you know that they didn't look at any other entries?


We can't assume it applies to all and therefore were soft on enforcement.
* There were indeed a couple of people who'd been around and only posted 3 or 4 times. Their votes were not discounted.
* The 'lurkers who haven't signed up' scenario is patently impossible to verify or test for. Red herring, good sir!
* People who had entries but somehow did not post more than 5 times (mail-ins, for example) were not discounted.
* 'Newbies' who signed up after voting started and did not post at all and only voted for one entry and category were immediately discounted. Is that unfair?
* 'Newbies' who signed up after voting started and posted more than once and voted in all categories were given some leeway. Both of them. *cough*
* Friends and family presumably fall somewhere above.

Patrick Alexander wrote:If it's only going to be the Pulp Faction in-crowd whose votes count, you might as well have used a panel of judges. Not everyone in Australia with an interest in comics also has an interest in internet messageboards.
I'm curious as to folks' thoughts on this... stuff.


It all sounds plausible on the surface, but the 'in crowd' is a non-existant entity in this case. Red herring the second, good fellow! *smack* Anyone with an interest in comics but no 'interest' in message boards is not a participant in this follly by way of the fact that this challenge takes place on one. The 'in' crowd happens to be 95.5% of all who voted. The majority of members voted (75%). A very very very VERY small minority voted outside the established rules. I would argue that allowing some last minute gate crashing is not unfair to the entrants or these last minute voters, but _is unfair to everyone else_. Why should those last minute votes be allowed to skew the results? Why should people who've invested in the community have their votes watered down by someone's second cousin voting at the 11th hour? Especially when it's as close at it is... we have a tie for fark's sake! Does uncle Jimbo get to come in and break that tie never having said 'boo' about comics in his life?

Hell no.

And, it should be noted, it all worked out about the same in the end anyway...

(fyi to anyone reading this, I love Patrick to death - this is not a personal attack on him any more than his post was an attack on me)
Last edited by maggie on Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby maggie on Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:53 am

This is a tempest in a tea cup as far as I can see. Does anyone really feel like they're being slighted by these rules? Please speak up cuz I don't like being the 'bad guy'. And, known instances of people calling for friends to come register and vote last minute aside, I don't want to be painted as some sort of rules nazi.

It wasn't that many votes, we were really soft on enforcement and nearly all of them were made '11th hour' and, like clockwork, were for specific entries one after the other.

Just how many new users did you have sign up in the last couple weeks?


76 since June 11th. A bit over a third of that after voting commenced.
75% of eligible voters voted in the 24 page category and only 6% of the total votes were rejected. So only 4.5% of those who registered late were rejected at all.

Is that so harsh? And I god hate math.

All I can ever recall you saying, over and over, is to register if you want to be able to vote. That's it. I do not recall being directed to read anything resembling eligibility-clauses for voters, or remember you saying 'register if you want to vote, and ensure you have > 5 posts, etc'. If you've made a general post, aside from the sticky-rule, where you DID do this, by all means, post the link and tell me


The rules are on the official site http://aussiecomics.com/24hr/ (rules -> voting)
And every entrant who encouraged people to register and vote for them has a burden to know the rules too. There are prizes, so there are rules. There's a responsibility to sponsors for us to put on a fair show, so there are rules. There's fairness for the majority, so there are rules.
I can't speak to the over and over part without more specifics.
All materials, banner and spots were [should have?] pointed to the 24hr site first and then to PF.

(and I hope your own integrity is impeccable enough to not edit something beforehand ). Else, I feel like I've followed misleading advertising, or something!


*frown*
We're all doing this out of pocket and for no gain other than the fun of doing it. This costs me money. And, to boot, I run the flippin forum where it was hosted and my entry wasn't allowed to compete because of the rules (even though I'm an Aussie resident, I moved to the US prior to the start of the challenge)... I feel pretty confident in regards to my integrity.

PS - re: the problems loading pages, it's probably timing out. Since nearly all the images in the entries are hosted elsewhere, when you load an entry the PF page loads, then the pics from the remote site start to load. So if may be timing out waiting for all the images to load. If it's not just 24hr challenge pages that do this, please let me know and I'll try to see if I can find anything in the logs. Anyone else having this issue?
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