Patrick Alexander, TITLE , Sydney (ADULT)

Forum for the 2005 OzComics 24 Hour Challenge. (ARCHIVED - READ ONLY)

Postby mark selan on Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:11 pm

I agree with Graeme.

At this point, i don't want to do anything more than label Mature/Adult comics as such.

Censorship of entries is not something I feel comfortable doing, for the simple fact that the rules never mention anything about content. However with the level media and sponsorship that we are aiming for, next year this will have to change.


(Personally, i don't understand why a creator who wants to work/has worked for kids mags would do something so controversial. It seems counter-productive, in a google world.)

(and i agree with Maggie, I have little interest in getting overseas validation (from american publishers) for Australian comics - but that's a different discussion)
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Postby Anomic on Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:01 pm

Bugger too slow on the reply


Original reply:
Good question - as you suggested the (errr) horse has already bolted - some of this needed to be nutted out prior to any posting so I guess it???s a ???learning experience.??? I don???t think you should shoulder this decision. I???m afraid Mark?? as organiser will need to step into the breech here - going by the numbers of hits this thread has received the same issue will arise when it comes to collating and printing the winners so it???ll need some thought soon. Because the best way of reducing sales is slapping a big R on something and then wrapping it in plastic, but as David said there is adult and there???s?? I truly believe that this particular entry would be denied classification (animals & children in sexual acts) under Australian regulations and therefore problematic if it was to be complied with the work of others. Maggie you are correct with Practice???s entry as it just skirts the boundaries and is not that much different to Big Brother in its content and intent.

Additional reply:
As for the edit you got in Maggie, I understand the issues with going for a DC Marvel morality and I agree it???s a two-edge sword. My aim in everything, is solely to promote Australian content and artist as widely as I can ??? the aim of getting recognition from the wider industry is just that - to promote talent. On one hand I would be the last to accept mediocrity or to give up artistic merit or the desire to cover adult material just to keep the Yanks happy. On the other how else can artists get the recognition and even a job that pays if they always say ???fuckem??? to the bigger publishers.
I, in no way was arguing for an American classification system for Australian content, it???s about recognition and support from the mainstream (where the $ and work is)

Mark, thanks for stepping in ??. this still an issue with any compilation planned
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Postby Scott Fraser on Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:27 pm

So what?

This 24 Hour thing is about Australian creators getting attention and paid work??

For real??

Cos, i hate to be the one to break it, but the quality of work produced within 24 hours WILL NOT get you professional work.

And you're going to start telling what creators can and cannot put in thei work next year?
I thought this was a comic creating exercise, not an ALL-AGES comic creating exercise. Where does the censorship start and end???

Maybe I should go and re-read some info about it all.
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Postby David Yardin on Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:35 pm

Maggie, I wouldn't want Patrick or Stephen (or anyone else) to be censored either, but as you said you have minors on the forums, so at the very least I would suggest placing their entries, and anyone else's with adult/extreme content (who should deem what is extreme, or adult, I don't know(the creators?), but I think most people on these forums would deem these two examples unsuitable for children) in a subsection of the 24Hr forum with entry barriers etc (like any other responsible adult site has in place). Can you block entry of this proposed section to minors based on their details of registration (and make it registered viewers only)? Sure they can always lie about their age at registration, but at least it can't be said you're not going out of your way to be responsible and keep extreme content from minors. I think just labelling the entries adult and leaving them where they are with the other entries, is like leaving snuff films in the kids section of your video rental store... well... maybe not that extreme, but you get what I'm trying to say, right? Just do your best to keep it out of kids reach.

I would also suggest to Mark put something along the lines of, "the sponsors are not responsible for content the creators place in their work, and do not condone the eating of your parents genitals blah blah etc" ;) .

I don't necessarily agree with putting restrictions on content next year either, but I guess you'd have to weigh up if it is beneficial to do so. Patrick seemed happy to label his work adult when asked to do so, so I'm sure most people would be responsible enough to label their work appropriately next year when they enter the comp, and if there was an adult section as I proposed above, I'm sure they wouldn't have any objections to being placed there.

Oooh the controversy of the 24hr challenge :D

Would be curious to hear Patrick and Stephen's views on moving their work into an adult section.
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Postby mark selan on Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:57 pm

Scott Fraser wrote:So what?

This 24 Hour thing is about Australian creators getting attention and paid work??

For real??

Getting paid work - no. Getting attention - a bonus.


Scott Fraser wrote:Cos, i hate to be the one to break it, but the quality of work produced within 24 hours WILL NOT get you professional work.


I agree.

Scott Fraser wrote:And you're going to start telling what creators can and cannot put in thei work next year?
I thought this was a comic creating exercise, not an ALL-AGES comic creating exercise. Where does the censorship start and end???


Who will not think of the children!

All-ages is something it wouldn't be. If necessary i'd draw the line at the depiction of explicit sexual violence. But if any future sponsors were cool with explicit sexual violence - then i'd let it go. If they are not cool with it, then i have the option of finding other sponsors (which is hard enough) or adjusting rules to suit.

These are just options - talking out loud and what not. I'd prefer creators make up their own minds if their work is suitable for the audience the challenge brings.

Its a hard discussion because personally i don't care what's in the comics, but on a organisational level - i don't want one or two comics bringing the whole thing down by way of bad publicity and disappointing people who have chosen to help out (sponsors) only to have to be dragged into the bad publicity slipstream.
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Postby Anomic on Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:15 pm

Scott Fraser wrote:Cos, i hate to be the one to break it, but the quality of work produced within 24 hours WILL NOT get you professional work.

Scott
its great that you are outraged and I love the all or nothing censorship debate; it???s a slippery slope both ways. I will, however, have to disagree with the notion that these entries are not up to scratch, some of the work showcased here (and showcased is the important word) will eventually make it to print, are of high quality and some of these artists are justifiably talking about using the work done for this event in their portfolios. If the aim were just to pump out content then there would be little to no reason to take it the next step and print it, it would just be posted up and then deleted post competition.
I really don???t think censorship is the major issue as David suggests it???s about making sure the competition doesn???t compromise itself with either the law or with sponsors. As long as it can be shown that some concessions (as suggested by David) have been made to the fact that there are classifications and a developmental distinction between what a child and adult can comprehend, the competition has done all it reasonably can.
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Postby Nate Soehardi on Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:41 pm

(Personally, i don't understand why a creator who wants to work/has worked for kids mags would do something so controversial. It seems counter-productive, in a google world.)


Ummm... Have you not read Raymondo person? "Aaah I'm shitting out of my eyes!!", is a line that I remember.

Now on a more serious note: yes, it's a very contraversial story but it's actually performing the basic function of comedy: to comment on what is considered social taboo. I'm not saying that it's okay to have minors perform sexual acts, swear etc but we all laughed at the story. If you did not stifle a giggle you are a robot.

I think if the authors have labled their work as adult. That is enough. Parents should be monitoring what their children view on the web and not expect others to carry the ball when they drop it.
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Postby David Yardin on Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:26 pm

Nate Soehardi wrote:I'm not saying that it's okay to have minors perform sexual acts, swear etc but we all laughed at the story. If you did not stifle a giggle you are a robot.


The only thing that made me even remotely smile was the "I have no witch powers!" line, so I guess I must be a robot.

Nate Soehardi wrote:I think if the authors have labled their work as adult. That is enough. Parents should be monitoring what their children view on the web and not expect others to carry the ball when they drop it.


Nate, do you think, say, a comic with animals engaging in sexual acts with minors, should be left with simply a sticker saying "adult content" and racked with the rest of the comics in a comic shop, or newsagent. Parents should watch their kids, yes, but people supplying access to this sort of material have an obligation too.
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Postby Patrick Alexander on Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:29 am

BUZZ CLICK YAY SUPERHEROES.

If anyone's interested, I've prettied CUNT! up a bit with some greys, and put it on its own page-site on the intertron. And here that thing what I just said stuff of is:

http://chickennation.com/cunt/

I hope you enjoy it.

However, for the time being, if you want to show CUNT! to your friends, please link them to either this thread, or Mark's spiffo webtertron page...

http://www.aussiecomics.com/24hr/patrickalexander.php

...'cause maybe they'll register and vote for me. That would be lovely.

I am planning to print CUNT! to have at Supanova -- each copy in a brown paper bag. I'm thinking of going the deluxe treatment, with maybe a gallery at the back; that sort of thing. So, you know, fan-art is welcome, probably. In fact, I'm thinking of going the academic treatment -- treating CUNT! as though it's a serious and important work of English literature: an introduction at the front by some important bloke, essays at the back, that sort of thing. Just for a laugh, like! What do you reckon, CUNT!-lovers? Are these good silly ideas, or bad silly ideas? Tell me, please: What would you like to see in the CUNT! book? What would you want to contribute, if you could?

Dum de dum END OF POST!!
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Postby practicecactus on Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:35 am

You had a very angry childhood, didn't you?
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Postby Patrick Alexander on Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:40 am

Shall I tell you about my childhood... IN THE BOOK??
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Postby practicecactus on Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:46 am

..you could write the book when your in the slammer.
..Or when you're burning in hell for all eternity. :D
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Postby Brunswick on Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:05 am

Personally If you were to have a separate adults/extreme section next year I'd self-censor, which is a shame because I usually draw PG stuff and it's nice to let off steam knowing there's greater control over who reads it.

I think labelling the dicier comics is enough -I put 'adult' on my one just because of the language. I think labelling is about giving people a choice about what content they see -if you're seriously going to try to prevent kids from seeing adult material you'll have to install ID checks and all the stuff they have on porn sites.

And the reason so many people have hit Patrick's cartoon isn't just because of the rudeness -it's also because it's incredibly funny.
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Postby maggie on Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:23 am

(just read Brunswick's post after I wrote all this and I think he, and similarly Nate, says it well.)

I don't have anything in place at this point to segregate 13 year olds (13 = we're playing by US rules given the server's location) from everyone else, but I suppose I could if there was enough call for it. But not without some more debate, discussion and a clear drawing of lines on what would be segregated that I felt comfortable with (and felt continues the commitment I've made to people who 'draw outside the lines', so to speak).

Speaking only of PF and not the 24hr Challenge: This place is comprised of [self-policing] adults (or 'of age' people) with the addition of a couple (known) people at or below the age of 13. Those (known) 13 year olds have had their parents sign releases (mostly regarding privacy and the storage of information) and are presented with an agreement regarding the board (you've all seen it, doubt many have read it though hehe). This, of course, doesn't cover the people who aren't members and are just browsing the forum - they're no more covered here than at any of the thousands of adult sex sites that are available for the googling.

But basically what I'm getting at is 'no one wears a tie here'. Plenty of forum sites will puff up their chests and tack some 'something something productions' on their page and lead you to believe they're something they're not, but that's not me. PF's not a business. It's not a civic entity. It's out of my pocket and out of my bedroom. We all make it something more than that by our participation, but in the end it's more akin to us hanging out in my basement than with a public establishment or business. And my basement is littered with indy comics. And I don't own a tie. If you all ever say to me 'let's make it more', I'm game, but until then I'm not putting on airs.

That said, I'm more than happy to entertain ideas or suggestions to meet everyone's needs or feelings. Seriously. Got an idea, send it to me.

Now as for the 24hr Challenge: I gotta say that right now I'm thinking really hard on all this and I'm wondering if this is really the place for next year's challenge if it does evolve as discussed. (that's not me taking my football and going home, that's me being practical). This is something Mark and Graeme and Simon and I should discuss more as things go on. I'm sure that, previous comment aside, I'd still participate in a competition that adhered to a more clamped-down Marvel sense of acceptability, but it wouldn't feel the same. But if it gave other people more exposure in the mainstream world, that would be good for them and I'd be happy for them. It wouldn't benefit the other side of the fence (not everyone wants to go mainstream, no matter how hard that is for some people to get through their heads), but I guess we'd, like water, find our own level or, like Lutherans, create a little schism and carry on.

Annnnnd... you know more people are viewing this post because it has more comments and page views and that keeps it at the top of the list and... oh the ironing.
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Postby maggie on Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:28 am

It just occurred to me exactly what it is that bothers me.
You know those video stores? With the little room behind a door or curtain?
No matter what it always seems (and is portrayed as) somehow seedy. Embarrassing.
I don't want to feel seedy or be embarrassed.
I'd rather make this place for adults only than go the Seedy Back Room route.
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